{"id":4367,"date":"2022-04-07T02:38:00","date_gmt":"2022-04-07T02:38:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/?p=4367"},"modified":"2026-10-02T01:34:11","modified_gmt":"2026-10-02T01:34:11","slug":"the-god-who-torments","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/?p=4367","title":{"rendered":"THE GOD WHO TORMENTS"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yesterday I attempted to answer the objection to annihilationism that it doesn&#8217;t satisfy justice. I wanted to move on, but there&#8217;s more to say about this.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">But this strikes me as a philosophical way of justifying an idea that is otherwise extremely unpalatable: God tortures people that he claims to have once loved. And he does it eternally. But at least he is justified in doing so because he is so holy.\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">It&#8217;s not Romans 6:23 &#8211; &#8220;For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.&#8221;<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">Why doesn&#8217;t Paul take the opportunity here to lay out the awful truth in clear terms: &#8220;For the wages of sin <i><b>is eternal torment<\/b><\/i>, but the gift of God is eternal life&#8221;?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">What does &#8220;the wages of sin is death&#8221; even mean if everyone &#8211; the wicked and the redeemed &#8211; live eternally?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">If everyone <b><i>does<\/i><\/b> live eternally, wouldn&#8217;t it be clearer if all of the New Testament &#8211; starting with Jesus &#8211; instead spoke of the two afterlife options in terms of &#8220;eternal pleasure or eternal pain&#8221;?\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">As Paul&#8217;s wording stands, it sounds like the opposite of eternal life is &#8230; death. Did he make a mistake?\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">Or by &#8220;death&#8221; does Paul mean what we commonly take &#8220;death&#8221; to mean?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">Here&#8217;s a similar question: Why does Jesus soft peddle eternal torment to Nicodemus?\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee\">In John chapter 3, the most famous evangelistic passage in all of Scripture, Jesus explains,\u00a0<\/span><spanPalatino Linotype\", Palatino, serif' style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;color: #222222\">&#8220;For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.&#8221;<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">But should he have added, &#8220;And just so we&#8217;re clear, Nicodemus, when I say &#8216;perish&#8217;, I don&#8217;t just mean &#8216;cease to be&#8217;. I mean &#8216;tortured for millions of billions of years&#8217;, so I would suggest you believe in me&#8221;?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">___________________________________<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: large\">*<\/span><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee\"> I see the same approach among Calvinists who want to argue in favor of Determinism\/Predestination. If Determinism is how the universe works, I would expect Scripture to teach it clearly, unapologetically, and repeatedly. Instead, Calvinists put a lot of weight on a handful of verses they interpret as deterministic and then are forced to explain away numerous passages that make it clear that humans actually have free will. But do other passages that don&#8217;t line up with their assumptions get acknowledged? No, they get run through the Calvinist filter.\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span style=\"color: #222222\"><span style=\"background-color: #fff9ee;font-size: medium\">I am starting to think I may have been doing the same thing with my assumptions about Hell throughout my life.\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Yesterday I attempted to answer the objection to annihilationism that it doesn&#8217;t satisfy justice. I wanted to move on, but there&#8217;s more to say about this. But this strikes me as a philosophical way of justifying an idea that is otherwise extremely unpalatable: God tortures people that he claims to have once loved. And he [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4367","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4367","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=4367"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4367\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":4368,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4367\/revisions\/4368"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=4367"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=4367"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=4367"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}