{"id":9426,"date":"2023-08-10T02:18:00","date_gmt":"2023-08-10T02:18:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/?p=9426"},"modified":"2026-10-02T01:32:47","modified_gmt":"2026-10-02T01:32:47","slug":"proof-text-case-study","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/?p=9426","title":{"rendered":"PROOF-TEXT CASE STUDY"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I try to stay positive here, but this is low.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The top Google result for &#8220;bible passages about total depravity&#8221; is a list of verses from a guy named Travis Carden and its best use is to illustrate why the discerning believer should put little trust in arguments based on proof-texts.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For example:<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Under the heading of <b><i>What is man\u2019s relationship to God?<\/i><\/b><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first entry reads as follows: <b>Psalm 58:3 <\/b>&#8211; <b><i>The wicked are estranged from the womb<\/i><\/b>.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Immediately, we see that the presuppositions of Calvinism are being read into the Scriptures.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">How so?<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Well, the heading implies the verses to follow are all about mankind&#8217;s relationship to God. That is, Mankind in General.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Since the Calvinist is already convinced that mankind is wicked, &#8220;wicked&#8221; in Psalm 58:3 is an obvious synonym for &#8220;mankind in general&#8221; &#8211; to the Calvinist.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the only question that matters is whether or not Scripture means &#8220;wicked&#8221; to be synonymous with &#8220;all mankind&#8221;.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><b><i>Read the entire psalm<\/i><\/b> and it <u>clearly <\/u>does not:<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears.<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the next several verses the psalmist wishes calamity on these people. Then come verses 10 and 11 which should give the Calvinist some pause:<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>10 The righteous will be glad when they are avenged, when they dip their feet in the blood of the wicked.<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>11 Then people will say, \u201cSurely the righteous still are rewarded; surely there is a God who judges the earth.\u201d<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sure looks like the wicked aren&#8217;t the entire population of the planet. Looks like the population is divided into &#8220;the wicked&#8221; and &#8220;the righteous&#8221;. And God&#8217;s response toward the wicked is quite different from his response toward the righteous.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I would like to ask Mr. Carden if he is being intentionally misleading in his list of proof-texts or if he is simply too brainwashed to see what is right in front of his eyes.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but look at the first two entries for another of his headings:<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>Can man then do anything to please God?<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\n<li><i>Proverbs 15:8 &#8211; The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord\u00a0<\/i><\/li>\n\n\n<li><i>Proverbs 15:9 &#8211; The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord<\/i><\/li>\n\n<\/ul>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The clear implied answer, then, to Carden&#8217;s question as to whether &#8220;man&#8221; can do anything to please God is NO.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But again he has read &#8220;the wicked&#8221; as &#8220;all mankind&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Care to read the second half of each of those verses which Carden is citing to prove <b>man can do nothing to please God<\/b>?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>8 The Lord detests the sacrifice of the wicked, <b>but the prayer of the upright pleases him<\/b>.<\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><i>9 The Lord detests the way of the wicked, <b>but he loves those who pursue righteousness.<\/b><\/i><\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Why leave out the second half of those verses, Mr. Carden?<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The only way he is not a sleazy, lying false teacher is if he is simply a lazy, ignorant copy-and-paster unquestioningly dependent on some other sleazy, lying false teacher.\u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I try to stay positive here, but this is low. The top Google result for &#8220;bible passages about total depravity&#8221; is a list of verses from a guy named Travis Carden and its best use is to illustrate why the discerning believer should put little trust in arguments based on proof-texts. For example: Under the [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-9426","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9426","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=9426"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9426\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":9427,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9426\/revisions\/9427"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=9426"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=9426"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/stevegrossblog.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=9426"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}